Is it time to do something different in your career? In this episode of HBR’s advice podcast, Dear HBR:, cohosts Alison Beard and Dan McGinn answer your questions with the help of Bruce Feiler, a researcher and the author of Life Is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age. They talk through what to do when you’ve been out of work and can’t find a job the usual ways, you feel lost in the ambiguity of a new role, or you want to convince your boss to release you to another team.
Dear HBR: is taking a break from publishing new episodes. The plan is to return after a hiatus, potentially with an updated format. Please subscribe to the podcast to stay up to date. Find out how to subscribe and listen to more episodes on the Dear HBR: page. And feel free to email your comments and questions to [email protected].
From Alison and Dan’s reading list for this episode:
HBS Working Knowledge: Nine Unconventional Strategies For Reinventing Your Career by Herminia Ibarra — “Major career transitions take three to five years. The big ‘turning point,’ if there is one, tends to come late in the story. In the interim, make use of anything as a trigger. Don’t wait for a catalyst. What you make of events is more important than the events themselves. Take advantage of whatever life sends your way to revise, or at least reconsider, your story.”
Book: Life Is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age by Bruce Feiler — “Each of us carries around an unspoken set of assumptions that dictate how we expect our lives will unfold. These expectations come from all corners and influence us more than we admit. We’ve been led to believe that our lives will always ascend, for example, and are shocked to discover they oscillate instead. Our society tells us we should be basking in progress, but our experience tells us we are beset by slip-ups. Might this gap help explain the anxiety so many of us feel?”
HBR: Disrupt Yourself by Whitney Johnson — “Current stakeholders in your life and career will probably encourage you to avoid disruption. For many of us, though, holding steady really means slipping—as we ignore the threat of competition from younger, more agile innovators, bypass opportunities for greater reward, and sacrifice personal growth.”
HBR: Managing Yourself: Five Ways to Bungle a Job Change by Boris Groysberg and Robin Abrahams — “People who switch organizations—whether they’re wide receivers changing football teams or general managers going to new companies—all face similar problems. It’s not just about the learning curve. Moves of all kinds entail significant internal and external challenges and transaction costs: upheaval in your home and social life; potential relocation expenses; adjustments to new cultural and political norms; navigation of unclear expectations; and the need to learn a new canon, skill set, and jargon.”
DAN MCGINN: Welcome to Dear HBR: from Harvard Business Review. I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating. But it doesn’t have to be. We don’t need to let the conflicts get us down.
DAN MCGINN: That’s where Dear HBR: comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts, and help you move forward.
ALISON BEARD: Today we’re going to be answering listener questions about new chapters, and we have one of our own to share. After this episode, we’re going to take a break from publishing new episodes of Dear HBR:.
DAN MCGINN: We’re planning to come back after a hiatus, possibly with a different format. What we know for sure is that we’ll update you in this podcast feed. So if you’re not already a subscriber, please do subscribe to stay up to date.
ALISON BEARD: Since launching Dear HBR: nearly three years ago, we published 80 episodes in all, each with a different expert from the likes of HBS, Wharton, and Kellogg.
DAN MCGINN: And from companies like SAP, IBM, and even small startups. We’ve answered more than 200 listener questions.
ALISON BEARD: We’ve helped you learn how to handle a bad boss, change your toxic workplace, deal with difficult people, communicate better, and get paid more.
DAN MCGINN: We’ve helped listeners on every continent. OK, we didn’t get any letters from Antarctica, but still.
ALISON BEARD: And besides specific practical tips, we’ve also learned some universal truths about management.
DAN MCGINN: Those who work behind the scenes deserve more credit.
ALISON BEARD: Your relationship with your boss really matters.
DAN MCGINN: And people are looking for empathy, not just answers.
ALISON BEARD: And with that, we’re welcoming today’s guest for our show on new chapters. Bruce Feiler is the author of Life Is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age. Bruce, thanks so much for coming on the show.
BRUCE FEILER: My pleasure. Thank you to both of you for inviting me.
ALISON BEARD: So do people tend to make transitions too quickly or too slowly?
BRUCE FEILER: My answer to that question is that transitions take longer than you expect. Right? So for some people, it might feel quick, and for some people, I would say the default is, for most people, it feels longer than they expect. I mean, I got into this project, as you know, because I was going through this experience now that I call a lifequake. Right? Which is one of these moments when life seems to be coming at you from all directions. These have aftershocks that last for years. And these can be times of renewal and growth. So, I think as we get into this conversation today about how people manage the work transitions in their lives, kind of a framing kind of thought that I would have, is that these are common. And these are important times when we can not just look at the next job, but use them as an opportunity to kind of rethink and reimagine and revise the stories that we tell about our lives and our work lives in particular.
ALISON BEARD: It seems like you’re talking about transitions that are thrust upon us rather than those we choose. Is there a difference in how you handle one versus the other?
BRUCE FEILER: What’s interesting about this is that the stages of what it means to go through a transition are the same. The tools for how you navigate these transitions are the same. But the mindset that we have, that’s what changes, depending on whether it’s voluntary or involuntary.
DAN MCGINN: There’s a perception, I think, that young people make transitions a little bit easier, that they’re not as encumbered. Did your research find that to be true? Or is that a misconception?
BRUCE FEILER: I think that that’s pretty accurate, actually. And I was a little surprised by this. The larger sort of idea that I stumbled into in the course of working on this book, is that how we look at our lives is really affected by how we look at the world. OK? I actually spent the weekend reading a book about Frederick Winslow Taylor. Of course, he invented the idea of scientific management a century ago. And this was built around the idea that you could have a system, and you could have everything move forward, and it kind of followed the, a kind of conveyor belt, the assembly line. And that’s how people looked at lives in the 20th century. For those of us who are older, back to your original question, we’re still haunted by this ghost of linearity, this expectation that our lives are going to follow a kind of a straight upward trajectory. The Millennials and the Gen Z’ers that are coming behind them, they’re growing up with this idea that you’re going to have 12.7 jobs and 11.2 moves. And they’re move embracing of it.
DAN MCGINN: Great. First letter?
ALISON BEARD: Yeah.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m a 49-year-old project manager. That’s ancient in my industry, tech. I’ve thrived with a youthful appearance and spirit. I often use my experience to mentor younger employees and bridge generational gaps. However, I was recently let go. The CEO told everyone the week before the layoffs that COVID-19 would actually help grow our business model. But then 50 people out of 500 were laid off. Most of us were over 40 years old. So I’ve paid to have my resume updated. I’ve pimped my LinkedIn profile. I’m volunteering as a project manager with equality groups. And I took online courses to hone my interview skills. Great references. I reached out to my network. But after spending three months looking for a new job, I’m discouraged. The number of applicants on many of the LinkedIn jobs are between 500 and 1,000. It’s nearly impossible to stand out. With millions of unemployed people in the United States, I’m resigned to the fact that I probably won’t work for a year. Luckily I have the resources to do this. But I actually love working, and I want a job. Here’s the conundrum. I have dual citizenship with a country that’s weathered COVID-19 much better than the United States. I can get a challenging job that pays better almost instantly. It wouldn’t be my first pick to move overseas. I checked that box in my 30s. And I want to build my community and move towards retirement here. My worry is that I’d be closing the door on working in the U.S. again. My question, should I stay, or should I go abroad?
BRUCE FEILER: My initial reaction is that I am impressed by the census that this gentleman is taking on his life. You know, in life quakes at their heart are meaning vacuums when the kind of basic building blocks that give us identity are sucked out of our lives. So anybody thinking about making a change is a richer and kind of more fulfilling experience to ask these larger questions. How do I want to spend my time? What’s important to me? Where do I want to live? What happens in times of transitions is that we rebalance that. Right? So maybe we’ve been working hard. We want to spend more time with our family. Maybe we’ve been a caretaker or caring for an aging relative when we want to give back. Maybe we give back, and we’ve burned out, and we want to do something for ourselves. So the first thing that strikes me about this letter is that in his transition, this gentleman is spending time volunteering as a project manager in the equality space. And it’s possible that this person may be a good candidate, given the age issue that he raises, for a shapeshift. I mean, maybe he wants to devote himself more to giving back. And he even says that he could go overseas and perhaps make more money, but that’s not the lifestyle that he wants. So for me, the first thing that jumps to mind is, maybe what, a way to solve this problem is to take his skills and go work at a nonprofit. Perhaps he makes less money, but perhaps he has more meaning in his life. That’s the first thing.
ALISON BEARD: I do wonder, though, I mean, the problem he’s having is that all of the jobs that he’s applying to, and we don’t know whether those are for-profits, nonprofits, etc., he just can’t get through the door because there are so many unemployed people now. On paper, though he has a lot of experience, he might not look as attractive because of his age and cost. So how does he break through to any employer, whether it’s in the public or private sector?
BRUCE FEILER: So that gets to the sort of the essence of what it is to change careers at this moment, which has to do with kind of the narrative of his career. Right? So writing a resume isn’t really the act of saying what jobs you had. It’s an act of constructing a story about how your past experience relates to what you want to do now. And this person seems extremely good at that. Like, the way he talks about his job, right? He’s good at balancing between the generations. Right? He has a lot of experience. He’s levelheaded when sometimes the younger workers around him may be more emotional. So I think he’s got a great story to tell. The problem that he’s having is that nobody wants to listen to this story. If you go back to the essence of kind of what I have found in my years of talking to people about how they spend their time, is that the idea of a linear life, and in this case a linear career, that idea is deader than it’s ever been. So he’s worried that by going abroad, he may hamper his future career aspects, his future career opportunities, because it will, he’ll be off the track in some way. But there is no track anymore.
ALISON BEARD: So the idea that I think has gone away forever is the fact that you need to be tethered to a certain geography to do a job. So I think that’s something he should also consider. Can he do this role that he’s looking at from the US, if that’s where he really wants to stay? Can he broaden his search? You know, there are many companies that are now committing to a work-from-home workforce and even a work-from-anywhere.
DAN MCGINN: I was impressed by how open he was to moving overseas. He says it’s not his first pick, but he’s very much open to the possibility. Given a choice between instantly getting a good job overseas or potentially being unemployed and unhappy for a year, that’s looking like a really good opportunity to me. Bruce, what do you think?
BRUCE FEILER: First of all, I loved what both of you have said. And I think that there is a convergence among the three of us here that breaking out of a routine, looking at working remotely, looking at trying something else for a while, looking at alternative ways of thinking about your career, I think that’s what the three of us are agreeing on here. So to me, what I hear in this written question, I don’t need to work right now, for the money, but I like working. OK? I like having this opportunity to be a mentor to the younger people. I like the idea of being cross-cultural. And then there’s another phrase in here that jumps out at me, which is, I want to work towards my retirement here. This is someone who’s both thinking back and thinking forward, and he seems to me that the answer is within the question, that he’s more interested in a lifestyle move at this point than in a career move that’s defined exclusively by money or progress or the next line on the resume.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I think that’s done some of the right things we would counsel people to if they were intending to just get the same job that they had had before. But I think I would encourage him to get more creative with that outreach effort. Do you have anyone in your network who’s not a direct connection, but a friend of a friend who’s working for an interesting company? Maybe some of the people that you’ve been working with in these equality groups have different connections that will lead you to new, exciting organizations that you hadn’t previously thought about. So I would just encourage this letter to think out of the box a little bit. I know that’s such a cliché. But be open, as you’re suggesting, Bruce. You know, and then tap the resources that are going to help you find those concrete opportunities outside this narrow frame that you’re looking in.
BRUCE FEILER: Oh, that’s quite smart.
ALISON BEARD: So Dan, what’s our advice?
DAN MCGINN: First, we’re impressed by how many of the things this letter writer has done have been the right things. Updating his resume, taking courses, volunteering, reaching out to his network. We think he needs to think more broadly beyond the same kind of job in the same industry that he had before. It might be a nonprofit kind of job. It might be something a little bit more cause-oriented. We think he needs to think about the narrative and the story of his career in a less linear fashion. In terms of the option to move overseas, none of the three of us were wildly in favor of it. He doesn’t sound like he’s like the lifestyle of moving overseas, and he’s at a point in his career where lifestyle is more important than finances or linear career projections. At a certain point, it might be a better option than continuing to be unemployed in the United States, if that’s not helping him emotionally. But none of us would pursue that opportunity too quickly. We think you should play things out in the United States before going overseas.
ALISON BEARD: Dear HBR: I’m stuck. I have a great job lined up at a new government agency with an old boss that I love and great coworkers. However, I feel there’s a lot of ambiguity over who controls what. Everything at the startup is being built from the ground up. We’re taking a lot of the positives from a previous organization and leaving the bad behind. But our board is very involved in operations, which often slows us down and puts us at risk of missing deadlines. I[‘m finding this stressful. It’s hard enough to create something new. The board is making it even more difficult. I’m someone who likes structure and clear direction to get me started, but I don’t want to have to constantly check in. How do I navigate this ambiguity? Should I go to a place where I’ll have more control, even if it means taking a pay cut and maybe a demotion?
BRUCE FEILER: Well, two things jump out of this question to me. The first is the emphasis on ambiguity, and the second is the emphasis on identity. And so let me just quickly address these one at a time. This person is clearly uncomfortable with ambiguity. Right? I feel lost in the ambiguity. I’m someone who likes structure and direction. Everything is new, and being built from the ground up.
ALISON BEARD: But the thing I felt that was strange about that is that she also doesn’t like having this hierarchy of the board telling her what to do. It struck me as dissonant.
BRUCE FEILER: Well, what to me struck me as dissonant is, you’ve gone to work at a government startup. Like, the nature of it is ambiguity. Like, this is something new. It is this opportunity to create something from the very outset. She’s got this incredible opportunity because if you look at one of the most important tools for going through a transition of the kind she’s talking about is that you don’t go through it alone. OK? That is the most dangerous thing. So it seems to me that the answer that’s right before us, especially since there is this common enemy in the board, is to sit with the coworkers, and I know you talk about difficult conversations all the time, but have a conversation of, how can we work together? Nothing makes that easier than a common enemy. And then go to the board and say, we need to create new habits for how you’re going to be able to be informed, but we’re going to have the freedom to build and do what we need to be focusing on.
DAN MCGINN: I think that’s a great point, the idea that even if there’s ambiguity and lack of structure, she’s going into this with a trusting relationship with a familiar boss. And she and her boss, who’ve been successful in the past, are going to partner up to figure out the ambiguity and to sort of gain back the control that they need. So I agree with you completely, Bruce. The idea of looking at this not as sort of a lone individual challenge, but she’s joining a team, which is going to take on this challenge together. I think that will give her some comfort and some confidence in it, I would hope.
ALISON BEARD: I am encouraged by the fact that she’s clearly jazzed about the fact that they’re creating something new. And if anything, she’s upset that there is this extra level of management that she didn’t’ expect. Her worry that she’s not suited to a startup, you know, that this isn’t the right kind of organization for her, is really overblown. She has all the hallmarks of someone who should be in an entrepreneurial place. You know, she takes ownership. She wants to be creative. She enjoys teamwork and collaboration. So I think your advice, both of you, is spot on. You know, I don’t know what the equivalent of a CEO at a government agency is, but if it’s her boss, you know, that’s a conversation that he should be having with the directors, to clarify roles and responsibilities. And she can help him do that. And suggest it, but it’s certainly not all on her shoulders.
BRUCE FEILER: I think this idea of a startup government agency is a very interesting phrase, and it’s not entirely clear to me what it means. But it suggests to me that the people who are involved in a venture like this, and the board itself are probably people who also like structure, because they’re in a government agency. Right? So this is not a total kind of startup from the ground up where there is a lot of risk. It suggests to me that the risk is somewhat mitigated, which suggests to me that she’s going to be surrounded by people who, like her, are trying to find a balance between structure and complete innovation. And I’m curious, Dan, what you think of this phrase at the end of this, which is that the alternative she’s suggesting is a pay cut a demotion, and the way she phrases that totally suggests she doesn’t want to move in that direction. She clear, it seems to me, wants this to work out.
DAN MCGINN: Yeah, I agree with you. And I think you’re right, that the phrase government startup is just inherently weird. And maybe she’s a little bit too focused on the idea that this is a startup. She might want to think a little bit more about the fact that this is a government agency. Government agencies are a little bit more slow-moving. So maybe reframing the way she thinks about the organization she’s joining will help her deal with the bureaucracy a little bit better.
ALISON BEARD: I think you’re totally right, Dan. It would have to be a mindset shift. Right? She thought to herself, I’m going into this startup, and it’s just going to be my team and my boss and I doing everything we want. But the context is working within a large government agency filled with managers who are used to having more oversight. You know, they’re VCs sort of putting in the money and then hoping that it pans out, offering a bit of advice along the way. These are people who are used to having control, and so they’re trying to exercise that control, and she’s pushing against it and saying, wait, but I don’t understand. You know, so it’s going to be tough for a while, and it will be awkward, and there will be a lot of difficult conversations, and hopefully, her boss can have some of them, but she’s going to have to learn how to do it, too, and artfully say, you know, I would love to keep you informed on this. Let’s figure out a way for us to do it so that you don’t slow us down.
BRUCE FEILER: I think that’s exactly right. And I want to just add one more thought from the earlier conversation that we had. And that is a reminder that life is not linear, and careers are not linear. They are nonlinear, and they take all sorts of shapes and follow all sorts of paths and trajectories. And the reason I’m bringing that up is, failure doesn’t seem to be that dire a situation here. This is a government agency. So if this doesn’t work, she’s not likely to be thrown out on the street with no future. She’s likely to have a boss who’s still going to advocate for her and her teammates, and perhaps they’re going on to a different next project that they will start together. So I think I hear us all saying the same thing. There’ a lot of ingredients for success here. But just some awkwardness, and a messy middle involved in getting to the other side of what can be a great opportunity, still.
DAN MCGINN: Bruce, she’s worried about the ambiguity of the new role. Doesn’t the ambiguity of the new role, doesn’t the ambiguity create opportunity once she settles in?
BRUCE FEILER: I think that’s a really perception question that I think that she can benefit from asking. Part of me wants to say, just give it some time. You’re in the middle of it. It’s supposed to be messy. There are going to be difficult stages and phases and moments in the process. Give it time. The kinds of feelings that you are experiencing now, and the kinds of skills that you’re developing now, I want to say to this letter writer, and likely to benefit you in the years ahead, because once you have stepped out of the familiar and the safe, odds are, you’re not going to want to go back to it. So if you look at this as a breeding ground and a training ground for important life skills, I mean, one of the ways I think about life transitions is, that this is a lifelong skill that no one’s teaching us how to play. You are now playing in this space, if I can use that somewhat glib word, but the skills that you are learning, whatever you do next, are going to make you better at whatever jobs come along, or you seek out in the future. Learning to master transitions is an essential life skill, and you’re getting better at it. And even this question shows the growth.
DAN MCGINN: Great, Alison, what’s our summary?
ALISON BEARD: So we want to assure this letter writer that she is in a perfectly normal situation. This is the messy middle of transitioning to this startup. By its very nature, it’s going to be ambiguous. The hierarchy will seem unclear. We would encourage her to talk to her boss and coworkers about the situation. We think that more senior managers should be having a conversation with the directors about the type of relationship they should have and how much oversight they can give without slowing the startup down. We want her to reframe her expectations about what this organization is. Yes, it’s a startup, but it’s also operating within a government agency. And it might operate that way at times. We think that her worries about not being suited for a startup and the suggestion that she should give it up are way too premature. We think that she seems very entrepreneurial and engaged. These are just some tough things that she’ll need to work through while building this new organization.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m currently working for a large private equity fund in a team that works with portfolio companies. Recently I got an opportunity to work closely with our investment group. I find their work very interesting. I want to pivot my career in that direction. I discussed it with the HR department. They suggested that the move is possible without any further interviews and assessments, as long as there’s buy-in from senior leadership. I began preparing myself from a technical perspective with some on the job training doing work that the investment team does. But I’m worried about bringing this up with my boss. I only joined the team a year ago. This manager has invested in my development, and I now oversee a large part of the portfolio, which allows him to focus on other objectives. I worry that asking him about a move would make him resentful. He’d have to start all over and hire someone to replace me. He’s never been unreasonable, but if he’s not supportive, it could hurt my standing with him and with the team. I also worry my request could be met with a, you’re still new to your role, and maybe let’s discuss it in a year or so. How can I stick to a timeline? I enjoy what I’m currently doing, but I don’t want to lose time either. What should I do?
BRUCE FEILER: You asked a question at the outset of this conversation about my observation that, yes, those of us that are 50-plus are haunted by the ghost of linearity. We are resistant to change. The Millennials and the Gen Zers that are coming behind them are more embracing of change. They get the idea of the nonlinear life. They know they’re not going to have one job, one relationship, one spirituality, one sexuality, whatever it is. They know that there’s going to be a lot more change. And that is wonderful in many ways, but there is a massive downside to it, which is that sometimes they seek out change sooner than it should come, and earlier than really is warranted, and that is just dripping from this letter. So that’s my reaction, guys. Now, I have said, was born in 1964, so nominally I’m a Baby Boomer. You sound like you are Xers. So if you want to shoot back at me, fire away.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I mean, I’m normally the first to say, you know, hey, you need to spend some time paying your dues before you think that you can get a promotion. But this doesn’t really seem like a promotion to me. It seems like he’s involved in one aspect of his firm, a private equity fund, working with portfolio companies, but it wouldn’t be that strange for him to shift to the investment group, bringing along the knowledge that he has about how portfolio companies work. I think the hurdle he’s facing here is the fact that he’s a key employee for his boss. And so, I’d love to see him focus on trying to solve that problem so that he can make the suggestion without leaving his boss in the lurch. You know, are there other people on his team who could be deputies to him, apprentices to him, people who could really prep so that he goes to his boss not with a problem, but with a solution.
BRUCE FEILER: Dan? You want to split this tie?
DAN MCGINN: Sure. My first reaction to this letter is: Dude, you know, you’ve only been there a year. You know, I think the team might manage a little bit more than he expects they would. Not to suggest that this wouldn’t create a little bit of pain and some dislocation, but maybe it’s not the end of the world as far as the boss is concerned. And maybe approaching it with a mindset that, hey, maybe this isn’t a gigantic deal, would help the conversation.
ALISON BEARD: But I think Bruce and our letter writer are right to acknowledge the concerns that he is job-hopping, you know, and this won’t be well-received by his current team. I mean, Dan, if you hired someone a year ago, and he said, oh, hey, I’d like to move to the book publishing team, or corporate learning, or higher ed department, after you had invested the time in training them, and you know, bringing them into key projects, that would be frustrating. You know, he has to definitely go in understanding that it will create headaches for the boss.
DAN MCGINN: Interesting we seem to have our first kind of disagreement here. One of the things that is a key tenet of the idea of a narrative life and a narrative career is that if you tell the story, and you retell it, as we talked about earlier, you’re going to find out the answer yourself so that you are going to make the decision about what you think is right. And to me, the way I hear this letter, this person is saying, I want to move, but I’m worried that my boss thinks it’s too early, and I’m reluctant to do it. This person seems to know in some way that there is a big risk here in doing it. So whatever the outcome, perhaps if we can agree on anything it is that the next move is to talk to the boss, and rather than assume it, that seems to be a commonality here.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I think I would approach even as more of a mentee. You know, I spent some time working with this group. I really enjoyed that work. If I were to think about making a transition to that team, how would you suggest I go about doing it? Who should I talk to? Basically, boost the boss’s ego a little bit in order to get him on your side.
BRUCE FEILER: Always better to ask for advice than to ask for a favor.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. And I think our letter writer is in a really great position because a lot of the people that we hear from, wanting to transition can’t do it within their own organization.
DAN MCGINN: And if you think about the kinds of advice that HBR gives to employers, if you can find a way to help this person move to the area of the business where he’s like to be, that’s good for the company. And I definitely don’t see it as an example of job-hopping. When I look at résumés, if somebody had a few positions within the same company, I think that’s a great thing, because it suggests promotability. It suggests a track record of progress and success. It gets to the story and narrative element that Bruce has been talking about. I see movement within a company as a good story.
BRUCE FEILER: That’s an essential point. And to the earlier question you asked me about transitions being voluntary or involuntary, this is a voluntary transition. You haven’t lost a job. Your company has not been shut down. Your industry has not been hamstrung by an economic change or a pandemic or some systemic evolution in the economy. You’re in a great position. So the worst-case scenario is, you’ve got to sit tight for a while. But that is the luxury of a voluntary transition. You can slide the win a little bit.
ALISON BEARD: So, Dan, what are we telling him?
DAN MCGINN: First, we think he’s perceptive in recognizing that there’s a risk to this conversation. This could create problems for the boss who’s been good for him. We think the next step here is very clear. He needs to talk to the boss, go into it with an attitude of listening, of not mind reading. This is not a conversation where the right tenor is, I want to move over there next month. It’s much more about asking for advice from a mentor. If you were me, what would you be doing to try to over there? What kind of timeframe and process might be reasonable? How could I manage this so that it’s not disruptive to my current team? Attack this as something that you’re going to embrace together. You know, this is an internal move. In a perfect world, this is going to be a good thing for our letter writer and a good thing for the company long term. We think he should recognize that he’s got a good boss, and that’s worth something. More time in the situation with a supportive mentor is going to be a good thing for him. So as he thinks about the timeframe here, don’t be impatient.
ALISON BEARD: Terrific. Bruce, thanks so much for being on the show.
BRUCE FEILER: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. And I just would like to offer the counsel as a kind of proxy here for the audience, that life gets us stuck, and the transition gets us unstuck, and to echo an idea that we talked about in this episode. It’s better to go through it together. So the great rapport that we’ve all heard that the two of you have, I’m sure will serve you well in wherever this transition and next chapter takes you in your own professional lives.
DAN MCGINN: Thanks.
ALISON BEARD: Thanks so much.
BRUCE FEILER: I appreciate that.
ALISON BEARD: That’s Bruce Feiler. He’s the author of Life Is in the Transitions.
DAN MCGINN: Thanks to all listeners in all of our episodes who wrote in with your questions. Without you, we couldn’t do the show, and we’re grateful.
ALISON BEARD: And please stay in touch. Let us know how you like the show by sending an email to [email protected]. We might not be able to answer every one, but we will read them all.
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DAN MCGINN: I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Thanks for listening to Dear HBR:.