As an engineer, do you feel you carry a bigger burden at work? In this episode of HBR’s advice podcast, Dear HBR:, cohosts Alison Beard and Dan McGinn answer your questions with the help of Richard Sheridan, an engineer, CEO, and the author of Joy, Inc.: How We Built a Workplace People Love. They talk through what to do when you want to influence decisions as a technical expert, you’re a female engineer seeing your male counterparts promoted more quickly, or you have a hard time committing fully to flawed projects.
Listen to more episodes and find out how to subscribe on the Dear HBR: page. Email your questions about your workplace dilemmas to Dan and Alison at [email protected].
From Alison and Dan’s reading list for this episode:
HBR: When You Have to Carry Out a Decision You Disagree With by Art Markman — “First, how much effort your team puts into making a plan succeed depends in large part on how much they believe in it. If you communicate a new course of action halfheartedly, you’ll get less than peak effort because people will sense that you’re not enthralled with the job to be done.”
Book: Joy, Inc.: How We Built a Workplace People Love by Richard Sheridan — “Deadlines passed without working software or anything even close to a completed program. When the software was supposedly finished, the quality team couldn’t even get it to work! The programmers who had already moved on to the next project declared, ‘It worked on my machine,’ and left it at that. When programs did finally work after months of quality testing, the results were seldom close to what the customers actually needed.”
HBR: 6 Things Successful Women in STEM Have in Common by Laura Sherbin — “Women in STEM have one of the toughest — and, potentially, most rewarding — jobs in the world. But how to reap the rewards is far from clear, especially in a male-dominated environment. The onus to improving gender diversity in STEM shouldn’t solely be placed on women’s shoulders, but systemic change can be slow.”
HBR: Structure That’s Not Stifling by Ranjay Gulati — “As large engineering projects unfold, Warby Parker holds periodic ‘retrospective’ conversations with relevant stakeholders—including managers outside engineering—to capture learning about what’s going right or wrong. For example, during a commercial foray into Canada, participants discussed why they hadn’t realized until late in the game that a local bank card was incompatible with the company’s payment system. Conversations about such missteps are structured to cover not only what could have gone better but also ‘What’s still an open question—what still puzzles us?’ according to Andrew Jaico, a Warby Parker technical product manager.”
DAN MCGINN: Welcome to Dear HBR: from Harvard Business Review. I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating, but it doesn’t have to be. We don’t need to let the conflicts get us down.
DAN MCGINN: That’s where Dear HBR: comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts, and help you move forward.
ALISON BEARD: Today we’re answering questions from frustrated engineers with Richard Sheridan. He’s a software engineer, the CEO of Menlo Innovations, and the author of Joy, Inc. Rich, thanks so much for coming on the show.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Great to be with you.
ALISON BEARD: So do engineers face different workplace dilemmas than the rest of us?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: I would say that engineers have to fight through a lot of difficult technical work, and often because of that hard work, they’re typically shielded from many of the wider business activities. So they have an important perspective, but it can be a narrow one based on their engineering work.
DAN MCGINN: I tend to think of engineers as very logical. Is that a source of tension?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Yeah, I think as engineers we are wired to see things a little more black and white because we’re trying to figure out not only how to get things to work, but we’re also trying to figure out how to make sure they don’t break in dramatic ways.
ALISON BEARD: There’s a stereotype that engineers are so technical that they don’t have the soft skills. Is that true?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: If you think about the typical “Dilbert” [cartoon] picture of the introverted engineer stuck in the cubicle with headphones on, lights turned down low, library quiet, let them come in at weird hours and then later lament that they lack interpersonal and social skills, we need to include our engineering teams in a wider array of activities, in order for them to understand where their work fits into the bigger picture.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m a software engineer working at a small startup. I was here in the early days before there was a product and have seen revenue, the number of customers and employees multiply. I’m relatively well-compensated and very passionate about the company. We started out with a flat work structure that allowed the free flow of ideas and efficient execution. But over the last year, we’ve introduced more and more hierarchy and centralized decision making. I truly think that a flat structure is still better for us, so I didn’t try to move up into management. However, I’m starting to realize that I don’t have much influence over company decisions anymore. I was even recently told not to engage in matters other than my day to day programming work. This is really frustrating. I know I have a lot to offer. I have a ton of context and experience. I brought this up with my immediate manager and the company’s founders, but it didn’t help. They haven’t been able to point out opportunities or give professional development. What can I do? I would hate to look for another job, but I feel like that’s my only option here.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: You know, I’ve been there. This defines the earliest part of my career and often not knowing the specific people involved, I think the general advice I would offer in this case is: volunteer for activities at your company that are outside of your engineering perspective and job. For example, if a salesperson needs a technical person to go along on a sales call, raise your hand and say, I can go. See if they take you up on these opportunities. See if you get a chance to in some ways see the perspective from the other side. Often what I found in my career is that the engineering perspective and particularly as the team grows and there’s more specialization inside the organization, you can get to the point where you’re feeling isolated from the business.
DAN MCGINN: There’s a lot of literature that suggests that startups very typically go through these awkward phases and growth. Sometimes morale and culture are things that suffer. So, would it be useful for him to check with somebody on the sales team and on the finance team whether it might not be him, but it’s the whole company that’s going through this?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: I think that’s a great idea. The simple concept here is to practice empathy with others on the team. Try and see the problems that the business is facing from different perspectives.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I think the tricky thing is finding a way for our listener to explain to management that they might be losing something by adding these layers of bureaucracy. I would love to have our letter writer give his boss or the management of the company all the articles that we’ve published by Ranjay Gulati, who studies startups and how they add structure without being stifling and how they preserve their soul. Rich do you have any advice about how a lower-level employee which is what our listener finds himself in now, can influence management and encourage them to be more open and give employees such as engineers more voice and choice in what they’re doing?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Yeah, there’s no question as a company moves from startup to the next phase, the phase of growth that everyone has to grow. Leadership, team members alike. No one can stay stuck in the past. There’s no question that this engineer probably has a tremendous amount of experience to offer, technical knowledge. It can be very valuable in meetings. If however, it feels like every time they come into a meeting they’re yearning for the past. I wish it was the way it always used to be, probably not going to be an effective way to lead change above. You need to speak their language. You need to understand what challenges they face and make sure you are not trying to ensure that your idea wins every time. In fact, the best way to exert influences is to give your ideas away to others.
DAN MCGINN: One of the things I hear in this question is that the listener has some regret about the decision not to try to get into management. He didn’t realize how he would feel the loss of influence as the hierarchy’s developed and he was still at the bottom of them. Does that imply that he should think about taking a managerial job if an opportunity arises?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: You know to me, and I remember these moments in my early career, that was a big decision for me to make because I still enjoyed the engineering work. So, I was able to stay in my own engineering work even though I sort of saw this wave coming that was going to push me up the ladder into career positions. I saw how that was going to happen. I was having the influence it was probably going to get me there someday. But I still wanted to remain technical. And there’s a lot of benefit to that. I think what I had to learn along the way and what I would suggest to your reader is the idea that in addition to the technical work you’re doing, you now have a new job. You have to figure out how to become that kind of managerial leader. I would suggest articles, books, courses on leadership, on management. Start reading a different set of books than simply the technical books that maybe you’re diving into every night now.
ALISON BEARD: I feel like he does have a decision to make because he clearly wants more authority and wants more of a role in decision making. So if he can persuade the management to go back a little bit in time to how things used to be, he then needs to make the call am I a guy who just wants to work in a flat organization all the time and so, I need to go to another startup that’s going to be that way? Or, do I want to move into the management ranks here? And I guess my question for that is has he missed the boat?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well I don’t think you ever miss the boat like this. It could be that he missed the boat inside this organization and that’s probably as unique to the organization itself as anything. The other thing he needs to be aware of is that those managers above him that are currently frustrating him, are probably not going to be there forever either. And so there is sometimes where you have to wait for the rain to go away and the sun to begin shining again because of the changes that occur above you. And those might be those people leaving. They might be moving in other positions and then there’s an opportunity for an opening either for this engineer or for someone else to move in who might take better care of him going forward.
DAN MCGINN: This listener’s last question to us is, or it’s more of a statement, I’d hate to look for another job, but I feel like that’s my only option here. Based on this discussion it sounds like that’s not really his only option and he should think a little bit more broadly right?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well, I would take the attitude and the spirit in this moment. If you decided you have to leave and you still have a good-paying job inside of a company that’s succeeding, run the experiment. Try and grow yourself in this current position. It may ultimately frustrate you out of the company, but think how much you can learn in your current position. If you read some books, talk to some people, get some advice, maybe get some outside mentorship from someone you respect outside of your organization, and begin to practice these new skills. Maybe something good happens. Maybe it doesn’t. But I can tell you there’s a lot to learn from negative experiences.
ALISON BEARD: So, Dan what are we telling him?
DAN MCGINN: Well we don’t think his only option is to leave the company or to look for another job. First, he should recognize that what he’s experiencing is very normal. As startups scale, they become more hierarchical and they often go through growing pains, and being an engineer can exacerbate it. In terms of how to fix it, volunteer for activities that give him a broader context around the business, especially anything that involves customer contact. Try to understand the challenges and the pain points facing the leaders and to speak in a language that shows empathy for that. Avoid being the person in the meeting that talks about the past and how much he misses the flat structure. Try to be helpful and constructive, and future-looking as opposed to pining for: “Gosh, when there were just 10 of us here, it was so much better!” At some point, he’s going to need to decide whether he wants to get onto that manage track. He can start to prepare for that by reading, maybe taking some courses, however, he should also think about whether if he wants to stay a sole contributor engineer for the duration of his career, whether this is an organization that supports that.
ALISON BEARD: Dear HBR: I’m a female engineer in a male-dominated industry. I’ve been working for my current employer for nine years. Before that, I worked as an engineer at another company while earning my degrees. My bosses tell me that they consider me a top employee and a natural leader. I get excellent reviews and constant compliments from clients and coworkers. Sounds great, right? A couple of years ago, two male colleagues on my team got promoted to senior engineers. I had the same years of experience they did, 10, but was passed over. That year and the next. I finally shared my frustration with my supervisor and director during my most recent review and they agreed to give me a promotion. Of course, my male co-worker who had been promoted earlier moved up to project manager at the same time. I asked what I should do in the future to make sure I rise at the same rate as others on par with me in terms of performance, education, and experience. I clarified that I expected a promotion two years ago and discovered that they weren’t counting my years of experience at the other firm. They did ask HR about it but were told that policy is to not count the years I was at school and working. This felt like a slap in the face. It seems like they’re taking advantage of me. Aside from the delayed promotion, I don’t get the same support and access to resources as my teammates. For example, others are given personnel to help with assignments. But I’ve been left to work alone for years. Sometimes on multimillion-dollar projects. I end up with five to 20 hours of overtime every week. It seems like my coworkers have been put on a glass escalator to the top, while I carry my own suitcase up the stairs and get held at every floor. Since our conversation, my supervisor has been trying to get me help. But I can’t help but feel betrayed and used. What should I do? I love the company and my coworkers, but am I a fool to stay?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Wow there’s a lot caught up in this one. The part I want to start with though is that her assignments are typically isolated assignments. And I would want to know why that is. This is a sign of what I would call a hero based mentality. And potentially a hero based organization. So, she should look wider and see is she the only one working all on her own? It may be that she’s being overlooked because her sphere of influence is actually fairly limited.
ALISON BEARD: But I think that she wants people on her team. I think she wants to collaborate. I think she wants to be in more of a management position and she simply hasn’t been given those opportunities.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: And that could be. What I would say though is that when she’s given those individual opportunities, she obviously seizes them and is trying to really hang on tight to them. And it may be the case that what she could do which might be counterintuitive given the promotion she’s seeking, and the respect she’s seeking and rightfully so. Because obviously if she’s done a good job up to this point is to ask for help.
DAN MCGINN: The thing that surprised me in this letter was that maybe I’m naïve, but I would think if you’ve been someplace for nine years, it should be about your work and what you’re bringing to the table every day and not whether you have ten years or eight years, or however many years of experience. So that piece of it puzzled me a little bit and I’m not sure what she should do about that.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well there’s no question that nine years of activity of recognition and contribution at a single organization, because again if it’s a fairly stable one, so people could actually have kept a history in their heads about the contributions that she’s been making all this time. That should weigh more than anything else on her resume at this point.
ALISON BEARD: So, I have to ask, is sexism at play here? We hear so much about women making up 20% of engineering graduates now, but 40% of the women who earn those degrees quit or never entered the profession because the culture doesn’t embrace them and accept them.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: You know there’s no question that the way this reads that’s exactly what it sounds like to me. What I might encourage her to do is to find other women in that organization who have somehow broken through, have somehow gotten ahead, have somehow demonstrated their ability to fight inside of an environment that maybe doesn’t recognize the contribution of women as they should. And ask for advice. See if she can find a mentor in her organization that can show how to navigate this particular organization.
DAN MCGINN: We hear a lot about how desperately companies want to attract and promote females, STEM graduates that I’m probably a bit naïve, but I would think there’d be great opportunities for somebody like this listener to be promoted.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: I, as I think through my experience of having women engineers on the teams that I was leading, they typically brought a bigger picture to the table.
ALISON BEARD: I like the points that you’re both making. We published a piece by Lara Sherbin at the Center for Talent Innovation who studied successful women in tech. And she found that being authentic and sort of honing your unique brand is very important. And I think that’s what we’re getting at here. That she isn’t just like all of her male colleagues. She brings something different to the table. And another thing that this study found was that protégé’s and peer networks are extremely important too. And I think that’s the point you were making earlier Rich. And I’m loath to suggest that women need to do more and extra in order to get ahead in a male-dominated industry, but this idea of finding what makes you great and what makes you special, and also I think Dan to your point hinting hey, I’m a woman in tech. Don’t you want to promote me? [LAUGHTER] It wouldn’t be a bad idea.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: It sounds to me like she’s doing some pioneering work inside of her own organization. And maybe she’s actually succeeding. She just isn’t as fast as she would have preferred, but there may be some, count your victories here and keep going. Don’t give up. Don’t get too frustrated.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that she did get the promotion and her boss is trying to help her now, so I think she’s taken a stand and made her point.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: And kudos to her for speaking up. To actually take the initiative, walk into the door of an executor or an HR person and say hey, here’s what I’m seeing. Tell me it’s different than what I’m seeing. And if they’re recognizing in what she’s seeing, is, in fact, true, there will be time for them to adjust their patterns of behavior. And it sounds like she’s making some progress there.
ALISON BEARD: So, we agree. She doesn’t need to leave this organization.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: I would say that just, once you make the decision to leave, you really have not much to lose. The risk of staying the same may be far greater than the risks of change. And you can start racing towards change at that point. You can start taking a more progressive response to the issues that are in front of you. Because at a certain point you may say, hey either I get this to change here or it is time to move on.
DAN MCGINN: Alison, what’s your summary?
ALISON BEARD: So first we completely understand her frustration. The HR policy does seem a little bit crazy. But we also want her to focus on the positives. She did get the promotion. Her boss is trying to help her get more support and resources now. We’d like to encourage her to do a little introspection. She does seem to be an individual worker and that has happened because of the assignments that she’s been given. But we think that when she has those projects, she should seek to bring other people in. It’s definitely possible that sexism is in play in this situation. And so, we’d encourage her to find other women who have been able to get ahead at the company and ask for their mentoring. Last, we believe that she has really unique capabilities and a perspective to bring to the table, and so we want her to lean into that, double down on what her value is, especially as a female engineer, and keep moving forward in pressing her case, and requesting that she get what she needs.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m in software engineering. I’ve been leading projects and teams for about four years, but I also report to more senior managers. Here’s the issue. I have a problem with disagree and commit. That’s the management principle that says individuals are allowed to disagree with the decision while it’s being made, but once it’s made, you have to commit. Maybe my aversion comes from my strong technical background. I seem to run into issues with managers who are less technical. I can cope in situations where the right decision isn’t clear. Engineering is a craft of tradeoffs, but when I bring forward rational and logical arguments for one option, out of my management. But when I bring forward rational and logical arguments for one option and my manager goes for a different irrational one with the only argument being their authority, I can’t bring myself to disagree and commit. Instead, I can’t hide my frustrations from my reports and peers, and I end up executing in a sloppy way. This is clearly limiting me and it isn’t healthy for the people around me either. How can I improve?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well, there’s an interesting choice of language in this question. Describes the engineering perspective or his perspective as logical and rational and the perspective of the less technical boss as irrational. And I would say right there is the heart of the matter. Learn to speak the language of the irrational boss. And I don’t mean become irrational. I remember once I was, I was convinced I was bringing a big initiative that was going to be life-changing, lifesaving even for the company, and the CEO of the company heard me out. He had a lot of respect for me and he said no. I’m like how can you do that? This is perfect. And then I came back again, presented the same thing and he said no. Finally, I went back to him, speaking in his language. The challenges he faced and translated my technical approach to the specific challenges he faced as the CEO of the company, and it was a public company. And literally, he said yes that afternoon and it was lifesaving for the company. So, I did have the right idea. I had the wrong approach.
ALISON BEARD: I think that’s such great advice. I think first starting with empathy. What could be logical or right about the approach that my boss is suggesting is sort of where you should start from the beginning. And then these are all my reservations. How can we figure out a way to get my manager what he or she wants, while also overcoming my concerns? So, just approaching it in a much less adversarial way, figuring out a compromise and then to your point Rich, communicating it in a way that’s going to be persuasive. But these are hard skills particularly for engineers to learn. So, how do you start building those muscles?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well there’s a great phrase that I learned from one of my mentors which was when furious, get curious.
ALISON BEARD: Oh, I love that.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Instead of carrying, you know, clearly after he leaves these meetings where he gets frustrated he’s carrying a lot of buckets of water back with him of his frustration and that water’s spilling everywhere and everybody’s seeing it and it affects his work. And that’s not good for his health. It’s not good for his psyche. He’s probably not sleeping well at night because he wants to do good work. I will tell you every engineer I ever met wants to do good work. So, now the question is how do you peer in, into what that seemingly irrational behavior is? And the best way to do that is simply to get curious. Start asking questions that show you want to know why is that person thinking this way?
DAN MCGINN: That’s interesting that you approach it that way. I sort of approached it the onus for that is on the manager: that if a manager’s making a decision that goes against what the subordinate was recommending, that it’s the manager’s job to provide that explanation and to be clear. You’re suggesting that the subordinate really can illicit that by using good questions which was not my first impression. So you’re putting the task on our listener really.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well I think it’s the easiest place to start, right. Now, would I have some advice for his boss? Of course. But I think: try and crack him. Don’t bring that attitude of well, I’m just going to disagree and I’m going to stay here until you can convince me otherwise and the boss has other things to do, and he says nope. Just go do it. Remember disagree and commit. Just go do it. And that gets very frustrating. And so I think he’s got to learn how to work through these frustrations with his boss before he can get somewhere.
ALISON BEARD: So what if he does all the investigation that we’re asking him to do and concludes that his boss really is making boneheaded decisions?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Yeah, I’ve had those bosses in my past and there are two outcomes that I’ve seen in my personal history. One is, I did quit. I went to another organization. I just couldn’t handle it and it was the right thing to do for me. And sometimes that is the best decision possible. There’s others where I toughed it out and I outlived the boss. They moved onto another organization. They got pushed aside. There was new blood brought into the organization and much more rational conversations could be had. There was much more openness to listening to the mind of a senior engineer. So, both of those are possibilities for this young engineer.
ALISON BEARD: Art Markman wrote a great piece for us on this and basically it says that when you have reservations about something it’s actually going to make the project better in the long run. So, almost using that tepid feeling about the decision to make the outcome better. So, you list the objections you had. You list the concerns and then you and your team focus on them. Right. And you make sure that the plan which the manager has decided on is going to overcome all those obstacles because you’re actually focused on them. And I think he should realize that by doing sloppy work and seeming angry all the time, he’s really jeopardizing his career. So, it’s time. If he needs to stay at this organization and he needs to stay working for this boss and still doesn’t believe exactly in what the boss is doing, he really needs to become a better actor of sorts.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: I agree. There is no, there’s no good outcome if the results of the way your organization behaves is to cause you to do bad work. Particularly in an engineering profession because that’s going to follow you for a long time. Your peers are going to remember it. Your bosses, your old bosses, the people they knew, the people who were counting on you doing good work are going to know it. So that’s not a healthy place to be. The second part though, I would warn him about is disagreeing, commit being used like a weapon against the subordinates of this particular boss, is like yep, go ahead disagree. Disagree. Yep, yep. That’s fine. Now, commit. You got to do what I told you to do. That’s a fear-based organization and most typically don’t do well in the long run. That boss probably won’t do well in the long run. I think the middle ground here is that moment where he looks at his boss and says, can I tell you how this makes me feel? Can we talk about the emotional effect that this approach is having on me? Can you help me see through to your side of the equation? I’m happy to do what you’re asking me to do. But I need to see it. You need to respect my intellect, my commitment, and my dedication to the task to help me understand why the approach you’re describing makes sense for the business.
DAN MCGINN: I had one more thought when I was a reporter I worked for an editor and I would pitch an idea of my own and this editor had a tendency to come back, yeah that’s OK, but how about you do this story instead? And I felt much like this engineer. I wanted to work on the thing that I wanted to work on. I wasn’t happy with the decision, but a few of those stories that were the editor’s idea turned out to be really good and were better than what I wanted to work on myself. So, over time I began to trust in that person and that their decisions might be better than mine. I wonder if tracking the outcomes over the long term might help him gain more trust in the boss if it’s warranted and if the decisions turn out to be the right ones.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Yeah. And I think there may be more senior technical people on the team than this young engineer that he might check in with them. I mean and describe the frustrations he’s having and see how it has played out in the past and why perhaps the approach that this manager’s taking is actually a valid and rational approach because it does work. I think the other thing that I worry about in this particular case is, if he commits, but goes back and does poor work, it almost guarantees that the irrational decision of the boss is not going to turn out well.
DAN MCGINN: That’s very passive-aggressive almost sabotage kind of response, right?
RICHARD SHERIDAN: Well and it’s actually a rational response if all you’re being told is do what I told you to do and don’t ask any questions. It’s the other side of the passive-aggressive version from the boss. This needs to be a discussion. There needs to be a relationship between this young man and his boss for this to work out and do good work for the company.
ALISON BEARD: So, Dan what’s our advice?
DAN MCGINN: First we would advise this listener to be aware that he may be coming from a place in which his definition of what’s logical and rational is a bit narrow. We think he should try to use empathy and to try to understand more broadly what the boss is thinking, what pieces of information the boss understands, or is factoring in that the engineer doesn’t see or isn’t weighing heavily enough. So, we think the first thing here is better communication around the decision. Rich had the line, when furious, get curious. Ask good questions. Don’t do it in a hostile or skeptical way, but just make clear, I’d really like to understand this better than I do right now. In terms of committing to the decision, we do think it’s important that this engineer find a way to get out of this passive-aggressive response where he’s doing sloppy work on projects that he doesn’t agree with. That’s not going to help his career. It’s not going to help the organization. We think he needs to find a better way to understand where the boss is coming from, recognize that the boss might be right more often than he thinks, and communicate with people on the team to try to get them on board as best he can.
ALISON BEARD: Great. Rich, thanks so much for being on the show today.
RICHARD SHERIDAN: You bet. This was fun.
ALISON BEARD: That’s Richard Sheridan. He’s the CEO of Menlo Innovations and the author of Joy, Inc.
DAN MCGINN: Thanks to the listeners who wrote us with their questions. Now we want to know your questions. Send us an email with your workplace challenge and how we can help. The email address is [email protected].
ALISON BEARD: We also want to thank Louis Weeks and Nick DePrey for composing our theme music.
DAN MCGINN: We hope you liked today’s episode and if you want to get the next one automatically, please go to your podcast app and hit subscribe.
ALISON BEARD: And if you liked the show, please give us a five-star review.
DAN MCGINN: I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Thanks for listening to Dear HBR:.