ESPN host Jay Williams started covering basketball, after his legendary collegiate career at Duke and his short time playing for the Chicago Bulls. Lately that means he’s also covering race, as professional athletes speak out against racial injustice.
He joins host Porter Braswell to talk about the lack of racial representation in basketball leadership, what corporate America can learn from the NBA about reckoning with race at work, and how he approaches professional situations when he’s been the “only” in a room.
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JAY WILLIAMS: Race is a part of understanding people. Race is a part of empathizing with somebody. You may not have gone through the experience, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t relate. That doesn’t mean that you can’t try to understand. If you don’t have a high EQ [emotional intelligence], if you can’t read people or empathize or try to understand, I don’t think you’re an efficient leader.
PORTER BRASWELL: From HBR Presents, this is Race at Work – the show where we explore how race affects our careers and our lives. I’m Porter Braswell. I left a Wall Street career to start a company called Jopwell because I wanted to help corporate America build a more diverse workforce. Each week, we talk to a different leader about their journey with race, equity, and inclusion. These are the conversations we don’t usually have at work. But this show is a safe place to share and learn from each other.
PORTER BRASWELL: Joining me this week is ESPN host Jay Williams. While you may know him from NBA Countdown, ESPN’s pregame show, you might not know Jay’s backstory. In 2001, he led Duke’s basketball team to an NCAA championship. In the 2002 NBA draft, he was the second overall pick. Then a motorcycle accident ended his pro basketball career after his first season. Eventually Jay started covering basketball for ESPN. We’ll get Jay’s take on what we can learn from the NBA about reckoning with race at work. But I wanted to start with talking about building bridges between VERY different groups of people. I asked him how he learned to do that.
JAY WILLIAMS: So my approach, Porter, is I am an active listener. I think if you pay attention and if you ask the right questions, it can always help you read the room properly. And this is something that my father has talked to me about since day one. And a story that epitomizes that thought concept was my freshman year of college, we had to go to a Duke alumni event. And it was something that all the players had to do, and my father happened to be in Durham during that time. And it was our way of mingling with executives, CMOs, CEOs of companies, people that wanted to be affiliated with the university, people that were alumni of the university, and people that are around the basketball program as well. So typically, as a 17, 18-year-old kid, I found myself in the corner with my friends, guys on the basketball team, while my father was interacting with people. And my father came over to me and said, “So what is your goal one day?” And as you and I have talked about, Porter, I’ve always wanted to be an executive. I always wanted to be my own CEO. And I said, “Of course I want to a CEO one day, Dad. I want to play in the NBA and be a CEO.” And he says, “So who’s here in this room?” I said, “Well, executives, CEOs, CMOs, COOs.” He said, “Okay. So let me build this bridge for you so you can understand the meaning between the two worlds. You want to be a CEO. You want to be an executive. Correct?” “Yes, Dad. That is what I would like to do.” “So why the hell are you sitting over here with people who don’t know how to build foundations to create wealth? Why aren’t you interacting with the people who have done this for a living 24/7, 365, and start figuring out who you want to be on your individual board?” It was one of these kind of eye-opening, young moments that you have, almost a deer in the headlight experience, because you recognize at that moment, “Yeah, why am I not building that bridge?”
PORTER BRASWELL: So throughout that period of time, how did you go about separating your identity as being a basketball player, but also a great student and somebody that wants to be a business person down the road? How did you categorize those different things?
JAY WILLIAMS: So for me, throwing myself into playing for a Hall of Fame point guard coach was one of the first lessons I had at compartmentalizing. And I know that sounds funny, but as a point guard for a guy that manages and micromanages every single play, I never had to think the game through. It’s one thing to be reactive and to be athletic, and to dominate your craft in that capacity. It’s a completely different lane to mentally dominate your lane, while also physically staying reactive while also being proactive at the same time. I never had to think that way. So now as a leader, having the ball in my hands, managing the shot clock, managing what play that we’re in, understanding personnel – strengths and weaknesses of each individual, and then putting them in positions to succeed, while also staying reactive and reading what the defense gave me, I never had to think through chaos that way. But it was such a great foundational experience, because that is life, Porter.
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah.
JAY WILLIAMS: Life is constantly thinking through chaos and allowing the matrix to slow down to actually see what’s in front of you, so you can make the right read.
PORTER BRASWELL: Sports is definitely a parallel to life, and I think those that can think like an athlete, regardless if you can run, jump, or whatever, if you can think and have the discipline that comes with being a good athlete, then I think everything becomes a little bit more achievable. How did you find yourself blending the way in which you interacted with your teammates and your coaches versus the way in which you interacted with those CEOs and executives through the alumni relations that you first described? Did you find yourself reading the audience in a certain way and changing who you were or how you presented yourself? Talk me through that a little bit.
JAY WILLIAMS: I think through my father and my mother, you know my mother set a great example. She went back to school and earned two master’s degrees while I was in school, in grammar school and in high school, while my father worked at Am Ex [American Express] in New York City. And being a Black family, a middle-class family, education was always so imperative within the confines of our household. But outside that, it was arduous at times. But when you’re around certain friends, I saw people act a certain way. I tried to act a certain way early in my life to prove that I belonged. And then when I would come back to my other subset of friends, I acted a different way that was suitable for how they felt comfortable. I then quickly realized as I got older, and hearing more of my father talk about this, that it was okay to be educated across the entire spectrum. It was okay to talk the way you would talk, and that’s not being Black or that’s not being white, that’s just being educated. But in the Black community at times, that got used against me. I was an Uncle Tom. I was a sellout. I was somebody that wasn’t for Black people, I wasn’t for the inner city or the community. And so I think as I got in college, I started understanding the importance of doing due diligence, almost the same way you study tape. You understand who your opponent is. So, understanding who I was meeting, what executive, what their companies have done, what their individual achievements have been, what are their principles, what are their foundational codes that they live by, and then interacting with them and understanding that, “Hey, this is me. I may not have the perfect plan, but there’s no dumb question.”
PORTER BRASWELL: Let’s get into sports. Let’s get into what’s going on right now with the NBA because so much of sports is culture, and so much of what people talk about at work is sports – but it’s kind of one and the same thing with culture now. So with the NBA and the lack of representation at the coaching level, especially from those that are Black. Right now I believe it’s five out of the 30 head coaches in the NBA are Black. What would change in basketball if we saw more folks of color in leadership positions in the front office?
JAY WILLIAMS: Well, considering that 80 plus percent of the NBA is African-American, I think there is a relatability issue, to a degree. I think there is a communication issue, on a lot of professional athletes come from backgrounds in which they are not around a diverse set of people. And also, to bridge that gap, anybody at any company, there’s a tendency, when things start to feel challenging at a company, you gravitate towards people that look and sound like you. I have this happen at ESPN all the time. I’m on a show right now that is called Keyshawn, JWill, & Zubin. It’s every morning from 6:00 AM until 10:00 AM. We are three individual people who are all dark. It’s the first time in our network that we have had three minorities on one show, leading a morning show, our biggest show at ESPN via radio. And the show that we replaced was a show that was older and all Caucasian. So obviously, their viewership, the demo that listened to them, fit that suit. So that’s challenging. But we would have people that come up to me and say, “I never thought that ESPN would do something like this.” Now, they would not say that to an executive that came from a different background. They come to me directly because it’s seeing somebody that looks and sounds like you achieve something, and then recognizing that if it’s achievable, it’s attainable for me. I can do that.
PORTER BRASWELL: So you hit on a really interesting point. You’re talking about the power of representation. When you can see it, then you know you can achieve it. And so as you think about your position, especially with having one of the most popular morning shows going on, regardless of network, on television, who is your audience? Who are you communicating with, and how do you determine that that’s your right viewer?
JAY WILLIAMS: I don’t put too much worry into who is my right viewer. I recognize that this is about my micro-audience. I do not have to appeal to 100 million people. I need to appeal to myself, first and foremost. And myself is being on national radio, being on national TV, talking openly about my experiences as a young Black man being raised in a predominately Caucasian world and the challenges that come along with that, unapologetically. And talking about Jacob Blake, understanding and coming to the table with the research of the intricacies of details as well, being prepared, not speaking off the cuff. Speaking from the heart, but speaking with intent, and speaking purposefully about what the details are. Talking about Breonna Taylor and her cases, and why athletes are speaking up about it. Also challenging the status quo, saying, when I watch the Milwaukee Bucks decide to forfeit a game, which then turns into a boycott, being able to challenge NBA players by saying, “We’re very appreciative of what you’re doing, but what is the strategy? What are you asking for? Are you talking to the Lieutenant Governor about policies or legislation that you would like for there to be changed? Are you telling people to activate locally from a local, state, or federal perspective? What are you asking us to do?” Yes, we’re all angry, but what are the actionable items that we need in order to make this world a better place? Now, that’s a heavy responsibility to put on the shoulders of an athlete. They didn’t sign up to be activists. They didn’t sign up to be politicians. But that’s the level of thought that I try to invoke through my prism of communication. And I think that’s important.
PORTER BRASWELL: How do you think about – and go back to the time when you were playing in the NBA, and imagine that that time was now, today. How would you balance being paid to do your job, which is to perform, and also your civic duty, as being a person with a platform that has a voice, and is intelligent, and can draw awareness to topics? How do you balance the two, and what do you advise for athletes? How should they navigate this world that they live in?
JAY WILLIAMS: Well, that’s a complex question. Where am I in my career? Am I a max player? Am I a league minimum player?
PORTER BRASWELL: Let’s start with the differences. What would be the differences between those two?
JAY WILLIAMS: If you’re a league minimum, yes, I think you can activate your voice. Yes, I think you can utilize your platform. But there is not the same margin for error. If you are the 11th guy on a roster making $600,000 a year and you’re not a huge part of the team, you’re more a part of the practice team, the scout team, things of that sort, you have to be a little bit more judicious with how you move as opposed to if you’re LeBron James or Kevin Durant. If you are a max player, obviously LeBron has been able to do this in a major way with More Than a Vote, you can activate in a really big way. I think with where we are today, my advice and what I’ve done on my platform, is when George Floyd happened, there’s a tendency for everybody to run to the microphone and to give an instant analysis of their opinion. And I decided not to do that. During that time, I took about a week off, and I reached out to people who were activists in the space, because I wanted to make a prepared statement, and I wanted to do enough due diligence so that if I did get engaged with somebody who viewed an alternative opinion, I would be equipped with enough information that I could combat their thoughts. Or I can relate to their thoughts, build a bridge, have them see my POV while I was trying to understand their POV, which I think is very important with how you communicate in today’s age. So that would be my biggest advice. If you are going to be an athlete that wants to be more than an athlete, which I would advise every athlete to do. Because you are not what you do. You are a human being who has experiences, and you should openly engage and talk about those. Just make sure you’re as prepared as possible, or you have surrounded yourself with people who can help you prepare, to continue to put your best foot forward.
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah. Again, from an outsider’s perspective, I think that the NBA did a very commendable job in providing the space and the acceptance to allow the athletes to express themselves and get their messages across in a very direct and powerful way. If you agree with that, what’s the lesson for corporate America? How can corporate America take some of what the NBA did well during the bubble, and apply it to their own organization to enable their employees to share their experiences and thoughts and emotions in such a turbulent summer that we just lived through, and that we’re still living through?
JAY WILLIAMS: I think the way you can communicate boundaries can be in a respectful way. Something that happened, and depending upon what your viewpoint is, or what individual league prefers what, because I mean, this changes per league, Porter. Look at the situation we just had in baseball. We had Justin Turner, whose results came back in the second inning of the World Series in Game Six, for Covid, came back inconclusive. Why was he on the field in the first place? So you recognize that at the end of the day, this is also about generating revenue. And one of the things I do appreciate, that some of these things have already kind of been built in. You had the NFL that said, “Hey, you’re now allowed to kneel for the national anthem.” That’s already in the CBA [collective bargaining agreement] with the NBA. It’s already been negotiated. Right? But people didn’t recognize that. But they’re openly allowing their players to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, to have that on the court. And yes, TV ratings may go down now, but ultimately you’re talking about an international product. So it’s not having short-term insight, and having long-term goals, and being able to say, “These are my principles. This is the foundation that I abide by.” And I know that long term, we are going to be successful if we stay true to who got us to this place in the first place, and that is our employees. That is these players. Their experiences matter. We should allow them to openly articulate what bothers them in society.
PORTER BRASWELL: Well, to that point, how do you think that then translates to corporate America? Is it the responsibility of the leaders, the executives within an organization to drive this conversation forward about race and what’s going on in this country? Or is it for the more junior folks who are probably more attuned to what’s going on? They are the generation, the millennials that are pushing that narrative forward. Where does that responsibility lie within a company, if they want to see proper change?
JAY WILLIAMS: Well, once again, I think for anybody in a leadership position, you have to be an active listener. And I do think that we are moving in a direction that people – I know how I feel about this and how some of my friends feel. I want to buy products from people that stand for something. I do. I am more inclined to pay a higher rate for a product from a company that stands for something than for a company that just decides to be stagnant or not say anything at all. So a lot of times, it’s leaders being willing to put themselves out there and say, “This is a reflection of the world.” In order for us to appeal to everyone, we need to have a diverse set of eyes. And I’m not just talking about race. I’m talking about backgrounds, I’m talking about different creeds. We are not a one-dimensional type of people. We’re multidimensional. That’s what makes us special. That’s what makes us America. How do we tap into that? You need people that look, feel, and sound the way the country looks.
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah. It’s the business argument for why diversity matters. If you want to resonate with how this country looks and the demographics of where it’s shifting and where we’re going, you better have a workforce that understands that change in consumer habit and demands, so that makes a ton of sense –
JAY WILLIAMS: Critical mass. Are you moving in a direction of critical mass?
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah.
JAY WILLIAMS: I’ve had multiple leaders say that to me.
PORTER BRASWELL: Do you find yourself still feeling like you have to fit into the given mold when you are entering in different rooms and different environments, given that you’re dealing with owners, you’re dealing with athletes now at ESPN, you’re dealing with the broad audience? How do you now approach that?
JAY WILLIAMS: So this is one of the most valuable lessons that I got from my accident, from being the second pick in the draft, and then through my own means, making a mistake riding a motorcycle, in which my contract could have been null and voided. Almost passing away, and spending two and a half, three years of my life trying to recognize and figure out who I was without what I did really taught me some valuable lessons. The most important lesson it taught me is that I became a victim. I became a person that would constantly repeat to myself, “Why me? Why me?” Why did I deserve to not be able to walk properly again for the rest of my life? Why did I deserve to have my femoral artery severed and me almost lose my leg? Why did I deserve to be in ICU [intensive care unit] for two months and to watch the team that I had dreamt of playing for my entire life, to draft another player at the same position that I just played? “Why me? Why am I still here?” And I had this coming to light, coming to Jesus moment, where my dad said something to me, because I went on one of these tangents complaining again. And he said, “You know, Jay, you keep asking, why you? And I would play devil’s advocate and say, damn it, why not you? Maybe your shoulders are broad enough to carry this burden. Maybe you’re doing a disservice to other people if you’re not being open about what you’re going through in order to help other people. Maybe a main part of your purpose you will find is to relinquish control, and to also be transparent, be honest with what you’re going through. And you’ll become empowered when you say, ‘Why not me?’” So I think from that moment moving forward, I really tried to live by the credence of, “Why not me? Why not me?” And when I walk into a room, there are a lot of times I’m the only Black person in the room. But I don’t look at that as something that’s going to hold me back. And that takes time to train yourself psychologically to not – and maybe it’s just in me. I go back to a place of being the victim. And I’m not saying that there haven’t years and hundreds of years of oppression and slavery and things of that sort on our side to make you feel that way. But I can’t think that way when I’m engaging. I have to think that I’m in the position of strength. And that comes with, why not me?
PORTER BRASWELL: So that’s such a powerful story, and it’s such a powerful lived experience that you went through – one that I can never imagine. A near death incident that took away, at the time, your dream. And it gave you that confidence to ask that question, “Why not me?” And because of that question, obviously you’ve made positive impact on countless lives. And so you had that catalyst, if you will, that provided that level of confidence. What would be your advice to those that haven’t lived through something that life changing, but they find themselves as being the only in a certain situation – the only person of color, the only woman in a room – in a corporate setting? How should one get that confidence to still have that feeling of, why not me?
JAY WILLIAMS: I am, first and foremost, I’m unapologetically Black. I am Nigerian descent. I am African-American. I recognize that I’m never here in this country without slavery. It’s complicated. Life for everybody is complicated, for everyone. So what I do is, I become transparent with different aspects of my life to build connective tissue to people. So for me, engaging in people breaks down that color barrier very quickly if you’re able to engage with the questions about who that person is. Even if it’s small talk, Porter, like, “Man, it’s a really cold day outside. I am not comfortable in the cold. Do you feel how cold it is right here?” And allow that to create conversation where you’re able to ask questions and listen. And if you listen, people inevitably tell you who they are. People want to talk about their emotions. People want to talk about their experiences. But a lot of times, people are too busy talking and not listening. And then if you’re not listening, you’re losing your opportunity to engage and connect.
PORTER BRASWELL: I appreciate that. Last question here. Should race be discussed at work? Do you think this is a topic that we should be having within the confines of the office space?
JAY WILLIAMS: I think as long as there is dedicated time for people understanding what the conversation should be, yes and it should be mandated. I give this analogy. What kind of relationship do you have at work with your boss or with your colleague? Is it a relationship that is transformative, or is it a relationship that is more so transactional? Now, what I mean by that is, if I have a transactional relationship, you don’t get to know who I am. That means I’m punching in at 9:00, I’m punching out at 5:00. Now, what are the emotions that come along with that, Porter? I might work hard, or I might do bare minimum to meet my requirement in order to punch out at 5:00. Now fine, I know a lot of people that punch out at 5:00, and they look forward to happy hour, they look forward to all these different things. But I then think in the transformative relationship, by you taking a second to understand who somebody is or where they come from, it creates a different team dynamic. The more I understand who Porter Braswell is, the more I’m inclined to fight for who Porter Braswell is.
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah.
JAY WILLIAMS: Right? If you were my boss, and you take the time to ask me about my mother, who’s gone through two kidney transplants. And maybe you find this out through a random, quick conversation, and you come by my desk and you say, “You know what, Jay? Just thinking about you. I know your mom has been through a lot. With everything happening in Covid, how is she doing? How are you doing? Is there any way that we can help?” Or, “Hey, I gave you an extra day off this week. I think you should go spend it with your family.” Do you know what kind of dynamic that creates in a relationship?
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah.
JAY WILLIAMS: The next day, I’m coming into work earlier. I’m willing to stay a little bit longer because you’re willing to understand me. Race is a part of understanding people. Race is a part of empathizing with somebody. You may not have gone through the experience, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t relate. That doesn’t mean that you can’t try to understand. If you don’t have a high EQ, if you can’t read people and empathize or try to understand, I don’t think you’re an efficient leader.
PORTER BRASWELL: Well, I agree with that, Jay. And you have a very important platform, and I appreciate your willingness to be unapologetic you – and who you are. And it’s important, it really is – the topics that you cover, and how you cover them with authenticity and empathy. So thank you for doing what you do, and I appreciate you joining us on Race at Work.
JAY WILLIAMS: Well, I appreciate you, too. And if one thing, I really need my rematch in bocce, because you –
PORTER BRASWELL: You don’t want that. You don’t want that –
JAY WILLIAMS: You embarrassed me at my own house. I had to redo the grass because you have a 30 inch shot height. It’s the biggest floater I’ve ever seen. I had mounds of dirt in my yard, and I still took an L. So I look forward to my rematch –
PORTER BRASWELL: Should we talk about horse? Should we talk about the last time I beat you at horse, too?
JAY WILLIAMS: I don’t remember that.
PORTER BRASWELL: Okay.
JAY WILLIAMS: I have selective memory, so I don’t really recall.
PORTER BRASWELL: Struggles. I get it. It’s okay. [laughter] Awesome, man. I appreciate it.
PORTER BRASWELL: That’s ESPN host Jay Williams. Check out his new ESPN show, Keyshawn, JWill, & Zubin. It’s available as a podcast and on the radio. This episode was produced by Amy Chyan and edited by Anne Saini. I’m Porter Braswell. Thanks for listening to Race at Work – part of the HBR Presents network.